FINAL OF INTERVIEW WITH PAUL BENNEWITZ

By Jim McCampbell

He telephones shortly after noon today, July 17, 1984, and excused himself then to close the office door. I suggested I would use that time to pick up some note paper, which I did. He indicated that in a separate incident; it must have been a court order or something like that, to Kodak Corp. to intercept some of his film; to either take it or copy it. He has a secret report where apparently his pictures that were missing are included. There are some reference numbers involved there and also including his case number. He is going to be sending me that information. He asked if MUFON would search it out and I said I couldn't say, although I might have sufficient interest to pursue it myself, and asked why he would not do it and he said that "perhaps somebody else could be more successful." This material came to him anonymously and I'm being very specific because it has some bearing on a piece of paper that we know about in northern California. "It is a piece of paper," quote. It describes this film and the tests that were performed on them, being very sophisticated. He indicated something else about a case number and referring to intelligence groups access, to a very highly classified--up in the 20 hundreds, which is a reference figure that I am not familiar with. The Air Force has claimed that this document is a forgery. The former Major Edwards is now a Lt. Colonel.

Paul offered, because he just voluntarily offered this information that Edwards is at Hann AFB in Germany and his home telephone number is ________. (On 1-8-86 he was Vice Commander AF Security in Albuquerque.) He is in charge of security there and has around 500 people. He said that Edwards might be somewhat reticent to speak freely because he knows that the National Security Agency monitors all the international calls.

I inquired about the other bases that were referred to in the Stigmata report or article. He said all that he knew that one was to the south, one to the west and one to the east and he doesn't want to know anything more about it.

I discussed the prospect of using the paper in the MUFON 1984 Proceedings to try to find the center of gravity for the mutilation cases from those maps that run from about 1972 to 1982 or 1983. The word gravity triggered in his mind another connection having to do with the Department of Interior that has a gravity department and they do in fact survey the US and publish maps indicating the gravity contours. There is a very weak gravity at the site near Dulce. He said that the craft are very sensitive to the gravity levels and that suggested that perhaps the other sites might also be located relative to weak gravity.

He indicated that the objects fly in a wobbly way. His pictures have shown that. He says "like the rocking of a boat." He has measured many right angle turns and also full 180 degree turns in a 20th of a second with the object still inside of the bow-wave. He has also observed and photographed the object or lights moving in a triangular pattern and square patterns. He says high powered radar can interfere with them.

I reported on the meeting that we had on Sunday afternoon and raised some of the questions that came out of that meeting. One of them was why not remove the implant? He said that this had been discussed and the lady witness finds that acceptable if she can be assured that there can be no nerve damage. He then went into great detail, which exceeds my knowledge of anatomy, in describing the location of the implants. One appears to be adjacent to and external to the cortex, which I think he indicated was at the base of the brain. The image in the CAT scan is of a very small helix, like it was joining two major nerves near the spinal column. Then on the lateral right side from the back, there is an implant of perhaps like the one above. Another is on the left side. Two others are on the forward part of the skull, which appear to be small 2 millimeter electrodes against the radial nerve. There is a shape to these things which he indicated is like a baby bottle nipple upside down, not the cap part, but just the nipple itself. (A note from Bennewitz: This shape is not the implants which are just round disks. ([On the top part of the skull]) The nipple things are worn externally as pick offs by the alien.)

(I raised the question of the USSR satellites seeing the base) He acknowledged that, and also that ours can certainly see it. He had a discussion with an OSI Photo Analyst who indicated that he had seen tracks up a hill and a launch location that was definitely not a rock but some kind of artificial construction. On the hazard of entering the area, I asked about that. He said that there is a risk if we went in on foot, but if a person tried to do that likely that the people would "zap" them. The odds are one might be accosted. But he thinks a helicopter would be safe. But what he wants to do is to do additional surveillance, then go in with a group. The larger number of people the better. A highway patrolman, a friend of his, is ready to go in at any time. He says one can't act on impulse. You have to plan out a program. He said four times he had near encounters and one was with this Major Edwards. He asked them mentally to be picked up. They were apparently scanning him. He doesn't "receive" anything mentally. He asked them to blink their force field twice if they were willing to do it and all four UFOs under surveillance did blink twice. He asked to be picked up on Sunday if he received one blink from all four UFOs, which were reported about 300 ft. from each other. He took this to mean "no." He asked if they were not authorized and he got a similar response. This established a code system by which some further communication was accomplished.

At some later time, an agreement had been reached for a meeting. He was on his roof and observed a UFO on the ground near an outer fence of the base. (This appears to be in reference to a government reservation.) An agreement seemed to have been reached to meet at the Northeast corner of the inner compound. Major Edwards picked him up and they went to this meeting place. He said "don't use the radio." They encountered two guards in India Section who had been ordered to fire upon anything that moves. They stopped their jeep and walked into the desert. There had been a miscalculation and they were in the wrong place. On three other occasions on some property he owns on 95 acres, UFOs came within 400 yards of him during daylight. Apparently, both he and the aliens "chickened out" on a definite meeting. We had a recorder at one time and waited until after dark (8:00 p.m.) and then pulled back for he said his voice on the recorder showed confusion. He said you monitor yourself constantly for confusion and psychological variations.
I asked who was flying the UFOs? He said aliens. He says they call the implants "alterations."
He thinks something should be done about all this and quick. UFO activity is still going on all around Albuquerque. It is hard to separate their activity from ground lights because they move slowly at less than 200 ft. Elevation, particularly over West Mesa where a lot of lovers go.

He has been observing that area with binoculars and then he talked about rotating the binoculars. (I inquired about this in some length.) If you rotate the ends of the binoculars, you will get vertical stripes that represent 60 cycle input to the light. For airplanes, you get 400 cycles -- you get the same type of bright stripes with different separation. On DC one sees only a spread out change their positions so apparently what he calls the MPS (manipulations per sequence/second) changes its frequency on a periodic basis, I guess. The MPS is visible on film in color at night. I suggested I would be helpful if he had a photographic record oft this spec and he said that this could never be possible. (Note from Bennewitz: What I meant was the binocular phenomena had to be observed. Photographing the phenomena would be difficult through binoculars.)

I inquired about his business and his solid state physics. I told him that was my bag too and I studied physics at night school in years after college and got just up to doctoral level, but never got a Ph.D. because I was skipping around the country trying to maximize my income and raise three children. He said that was his experience also. Specifically being temperature and humidity devises. Their equipment has been on the shuttle and most of their business is with the top 500 corporations.

His company is by Sandia on 1/2 acre and now building an additional 3500 sq. ft. building. There is another organization called Bennewitz Laboratory which is the research arm of Thunder Science Corporation owned 0% by the latter and operated by his three sons. They have invented a hearing device that has no moving parts that makes totally deaf people able to hear and in addition, expanding the frequency range plus 1000 Hz on the high side and down to less than 10 Hz on the low frequency end.

He said that he got involved in all of this merely as a hobby and it became an obsession. He simply wanted to know what was going on and to develop instrumentation to measure data, etc. Since the signals from the UFOs are very low frequency, down around 200 Hz and with an analyzer you just think you are looking at some noise. But I believe he said it was a memory scope that was able to filter out the signal involved there whereas ordinary filters do not. They trigger signals in an on and off fashion, instead of 0 and 1 volt representing that type of communication or signal a distinction is made between a narrow pulse and wide pulse. Each communication is preceded by four or five pulses.

He had previously been in touch with the OSI which has been verified in Clear Intent. But now he says that when he calls them, they won't speak to him so he is in a "shut out" situation. I pointed out that there were two OSI (Office of Special Investigation) and the other is CIA. He assures me that it was not the CIA group. He said the actual title of the group that he was dealing with was the "Office of Secret Investigation or Intelligence." He says they investigate the humans, that is the government. I mentioned to him that in Clear Intent that it said he was under surveillance. That happens to be in error. That information comes from somewhere else. But he quickly said "I know that I am under surveillance."

They set up a site across the street from his house with computers and recorders. A girl rented the house. He had a detective look into this and found that she was operating under an assumed name and she had no social security number. He has photographs of people coming and going with NORAD license plates, Air Force, A.F. Weapons Lab. He thinks NSA is orchestrating this.
For an entirely separate subject, he was told that it was a Washington source. The whole operation, the UFO base detail, is classified higher than the President. The President doesn't know about all of this.

He is also concerned that there are two levels of security involved. (1) Project Aquarius, which is TOP SECRET and another (2) higher than that; where people in charge of the higher level information having these new vehicles could simply take over the government. He called the Air Force intelligence headquarters in Washington. The Commanding Officer was not present but he talked to a Captain who was the adjutant or executive and started talking. He said "I know all of these facts, and this and that, and what do you think about that?" The Captain said, "Just write us a report and tell us what we should do about 'it''. So he prepared a 20 page report and Edwards saw it. He forwarded it by Federal Express and also a copy to the White House in a double envelope, indicating that sensitive material was in the inner envelope. Edwards got a call from Colonel Don _____ who was the White House Liaison to inquire who this Bennewitz fellow was. Edwards gave a positive report. The White House was extremely interested and issued orders "to get on with it; to do something, assuring Edwards that Bennewitz would receive a letter within two weeks." Such a letter was never received. Finally, Col. ____ from the Air Force Secretary sent him a letter eventually just pursuing the "Old Party Line" that said he should not be troubling the headquarters of the Air Force and the Executive offices of the White House with all of his stuff. Bennewitz showed this letter to Edwards who blew up and called Col. Don ____. They got an answer from the Air Force that they were not interested and knew nothing about it.

On another point: referencing the Stigmata article where the farmer thought that the two humanoids may have been naked. In the case with which he is dealing -- the woman and the son, the boy upon being questioned laughed, and he said "they had no fronts or behinds." I asked, "No sexual organs," and he said "Yes, no organs at all." He has received information concerning a high metabolism rate of the creatures, even birdlike. One of the witnesses, I think the woman who was being taken by the hand, said the hand of the creature was "red hot." He guesses that it must have been 115 degrees F. The creatures cannot stand uncontrolled environment. They wear suits for protection against excessive heat. They are fed by a formula and if they are short of that intake they will turn gray. They are a light -- yellow green when healthy. The heart is on the right side and they have one lung. Elimination is through the skin. The creatures are very strong.

(He seems to have very little knowledge of the literature and the organizations working on UFOs. I promised to scare up a copy of my book to send to him and also a personal resume to give him an idea of my background and copies of one or more of my papers.)

I asked about his reaction to the summary of the UFOs fields that I deduced that I relayed to him in the first call. (He thinks that I may be right.) He says that the UFOs can be detected by radar detectors and they also trigger highway patrol radar or police radar guns.

His friend Valdez, at his suggestion, was looking for a water intake to the site and within about 1 1/2 miles he came upon a flying saucer at a distance of about 300 ft. The Indians own the area -- are quite scared and very superstitious and 90% of them have moved into town.

The Chief of Police told him about an experience he had. A tribal chief had gone deer hunting on a mesa south of Dulce. Two days went by. When he didn't return, a search party was sent out. In the daylight on the mesa, a ship "hopped up" from down below and came up above the mesa. Two guys (human) kicked the tribal chief to the ground. Then they got into the ship and disappeared. He had been hunting and had "fell." He had a broken leg and he was picked up by these human people in the craft. The ship was black. Some of these humans wear black uniforms.

He discussed something about some devices called sphericals that have a sound when they move abruptly; and they are apparently remotely controlled little vehicles. Spheres are from 1 1/2" to 12' in diameter. We discussed weapons used by aliens and whether or not they are used to paralyze people. Yes, they consist of a cube about 2" on a side -- called a lens hung around the neck that emits a beam. Another on the ship produces a blue light that he has seen. It comes from a device about 4' high and 14" long with grid black lines on it. The color produced is very light blue which is like ionized oxygen.

He has not sought publicity on any of this. He is interested only in getting the facts. He did not object to the idea that I would send a copy of our telephone conversation to Tom Adams when I told him about my plan. He had received a call from a William Allen from Seattle, concerning an English publication of the Kirtland AFB case. I told him that if it was the same Bill Allen that I knew, it was a good contact, since I had become very well acquainted with Bill Allen at the 1983 MUFON Symposium in Pasadena. (NOTE: William K. Allen lived in Kelowna, BC, Canada. Bill Allen from Seattle recently died. He is not the same person as Bill Allen from Kelowna. I knew both of them. Bill Allen from Seattle wrote several books, one of them was "Spacecraft from Beyond theThird dimension." He was a Boeing engineer. Bill Allen in Kelowna was an APRO investigator.) The English publication seemed to be the Flying Saucer Review which I assured him was the leading publiication of its kind in the world. (Now defunct)

(So there is some more information that we can put into the equation of Paul Bennewitz and it is indeed a puzzling situation. I continue to get a reassurance that the guy is continually on the level and what he has to say should be taken seriously and not look into it in great details without being overly skeptical at the outset.) Jim McCampbell comments.

(A note on the bottom from Paul Bennewitz: "You are skeptical? If it were not happening in "first person" I wouldn't believe it either.) This paper was signed by Walt Andrus - September 19, 1984.
__________
Someone in the government took what Bennewitz said very seriously even though they said they weren't interested. They ended up by putting him in a mental facility saying he had a nervous breakdown. A usual tactic to shut a person up that they don't want "spilling the beans!" How disgusting.